Curse

Kusandaa · Nov 01, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I went through Prophecies on every character without an elite. I didn't know where to get them, what ones were good and I was killing fine without an elite, so as far as I was concerned, I didn't need them.

Besides, PvE is easy enough. (Providing you take heroes/hench or have a very, very experienced, co-ordinated, intelligent team. So that's PuGs out the question.) At worst, you can scrape by without an elite.

About the same here; at some point, I wouldn't cap any elite before I finished the game (yeah, I was weird back then).

But most elite choice is highly contextual, and even there, a bunch of stuff will work. Take The Deep - nukers go either Renewal (I use that), Dual Attune or SF, and I bet some run Echo for Arcane Echo and MS. In an area where there's a lot of enchantment removal, I won't run AotL as an MM - I'll run OoU instead, the opposite when we determine someone has to tank and I offer myself (no way I'm gonna run OoU if I'm a N/D tank x]). While in Tombs, a b/p ranger is required to have Barrrage.

Friar Khan · Nov 01, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

There have been times where I found that there was no elite skill that would be as useful as the skills I was already using. It's something that happens, though rarely.

Often when a build is better without an elite then there's a very definite and well thought out reason for it. I can't recall ever having to defend a build that had no elite, but if I ever had I'm sure that citing my reasoning would have gone a long way.

Generally, if you're playing normal mode PvE that isn't an elite mission or dungeon then build isn't terribly important. At times if I'm playing with h/h and I feel like chatting then I'll mostly aggro and let the heroes do all the work. Of course you wouldn't want to be so lazy in a pug, but I'm just saying that you can play most PvE without being a build nazi or caring much if people think your bar is nub.

payne · Nov 01, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

you have no elite boohoo...you can make a perfectly good bar without an elite...BHA can be replaced by concussion shot (1st i thought of)
there are many alternatives to elite with normal skills! mostly cost more energy but in the end they amount to just a lesser version IMO...it is just discrimination IMO if you are not allowed into a group because you do not possess an elite!

Kusandaa · Nov 01, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne

you have no elite boohoo...you can make a perfectly good bar without an elite...BHA can be replaced by concussion shot (1st i thought of)
there are many alternatives to elite with normal skills! mostly cost more energy but in the end they amount to just a lesser version IMO...it is just discrimination IMO if you are not allowed into a group because you do not possess an elite!

Refer to my post above. Some areas require you to have an elite, so it's not exactly discrimination. Another I can think of would be a DoA group without an Obsidian Flesh tank, or any similar skill (which are elite, usually. If there's one I can't think of it ATM).

korcan · Nov 01, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

semantically speaking, something elite should by definition be better then something that is normal.

unfortunately, that isnt always the case in terms of skill choices in gw, but i can understand why someone wouldnt allow you into their group if you werent packing an elite skill.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Often times the elite skills come with quirks or penalties that make them undesirable.

william1975 · Nov 01, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

i normaly use elites but sometimes i dont need to, especially if im outfitting a pve only skill build

Martin Firestorm · Nov 01, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Assuming you have enough unlocked, I can't inmagine any situation where you'd rather not have an elite on your bar. They are "elite" and you are restrcied to 1 on your bar for a reason.

MithranArkanere · Nov 01, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Almost any skillbar with no elites will be always improved with an elite.
Other thing would be which ones. If the elites you have access to are no better, then there's no need to use them.

After getting to Droknar's Forge, Kaineng, or Sunspear Sanctuary, getting some elites is a must.

HawkofStorms · Nov 01, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1975

i normaly use elites but sometimes i dont need to, especially if im outfitting a pve only skill build

Yeah... bars filled with stuff like necrois and what not might not benefit from an elite.

Antheus · Nov 01, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Yeah... bars filled with stuff like necrois and what not might not benefit from an elite.

Those skills are above elite. That's why they aren't allowed in PvP.

Issac · Nov 01, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Most people think that if you don't have an elite in your bar, your build fails :S. Sometimes you need an elite, some times you don't depending on the build lol.

-Pluto- · Nov 01, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Sure there are builds that don't need an elite!

The rest of us will just run better builds that do need them.

reddswitch · Nov 01, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

There're some normal skills that are on par with elite skills. As stated, it depends on what you're running, sometimes no elites fit in. As long as the bar makes sense it shouldn't be dismissed.

leprekan · Nov 02, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

No matter what class you are if you only have one Elite ... get headbutt. Works great on hero monks.

drago34 · Nov 02, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

The only build I have ever come up with that I have never worked an elite into it is my sin's build. It has been the same build for 10months now and has never needed to be changed. I could never find one that I liked enough to work into the build. I'll post the build later, I'm too tired/lazy right now lol.

Yichi · Nov 02, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

Sure there are builds that don't need an elite!

The rest of us will just run better builds that do need them.

thread over.

free_fall · Nov 02, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Lots of good comments and suggestions.

I was fortunate in that my rit was never excluded from a group for not having an elite (though I have seen that happen). I would get asked about it on occassion and when I'd say I hadn't seen any I wanted, the response was usually "oh, ok".

That was an interesting comment about finding an elite you like and then building a bar around it - I'd never thought of doing something like that. I'm more the school of finding one that's like a regular skill you already use, only better.

That was the problem I had with the rit - I didn't see anything that I thought was really better than the skills I was using. As someone else pointed out, some elites, while looking interesting at first glance, carry drawbacks or penalties that may offset the 'better' part - high cost, long recharge, short duration, etc.

Then there's the question of cap locations. I always thought it was strange that in Proph, you can't cap Hundred Blades til like 10 minutes before the game ends - lot of good it does then. lol

On my para, I didn't research elites until after the one I really wanted was no longer available to me (only available in the Garden before it falls into Night), so my own fault there. So I make do with something else for the moment; I can always get it via a tome when I get back around to playing him.

Skyy High · Nov 02, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

As I told you in the other thread, it's simply a flawed test, as you can make any build better (whether you use non-elite or elite skills).

And as I said in the other thread, there are definite characteristics by which you can judge whether adding a skill makes a bar better or not. There is no bar that I have seen that can't be improved by adding an elite skill.

So what if you could also improve a bar by tweaking other things? That doesn't disprove the fact that the sole action of replacing one skill with an elite makes a bar better.

At the whole, "What about bars packing necrosis," -> Elite energy management. Enough said. Being able to spam necrosis more simply improves what your build does already.

strcpy · Nov 02, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Read my post and what part I highlighted. I never said Flesh Golem is useless, I was saying countering his statement that there was no good MM elites before Factions.

I still stand by what I said, I'll even say there are still no good elites for a MM. I qualified that by saying (and what people jumping on me happily ignored - only bolding the part that was easy to bash) that the skills were not bad, just not worthy of being "elite".

You will note this isn't saying the skills are bad, just saying they aren't really "Elite". If anything the arguing going back and forth is quite strong evidence that they are *not* deserving of Elite status. Most of them are Elite because they unbalance *other* builds or if they were not they would be too easy to abuse with other elites.

The Death Magic skills that *are* worthy of Elite aren't really directly Minion Master skills - though of course we can use them. If Order of Undeath had some way to cancel itself then I would easily list it as "great", it is VERY much worth the status in terms of raw damage but it is too easy to have something go wrong and have to sit and watch as you die and nothing anyone or anything can do about it.